Hello! I am a militant atheist, although you would never guess that by my sunny disposition. (Hence the name Sunny Skeptic) I am literally happy every single day, and nothing much gets me down.
That being said, although I’m very happy, I’m also very happy to take on any argument or debate, and I will have a lot of fun with you if you present yourself to me for the verbal slaughter.
If you’re a religionut or fundagelical and are trying to promote your own blog, I won’t ever click on your link. Other people from my page might, but I won’t.
I run the Minnesota Atheists’ MySpace page and have proven to be a pretty fine cat herder. (A members’ words, not mine.) It’s fun anyway. We have more than 1,500 friends, almost all from Minnesota. (I have added a few ‘reference’ friends that may be of interest to our members.)
I am also the assistant organizer of the Southern Minnesota Atheists Meet Up Group, which August, Vic, and myself invented while eating pizza after a Minnesota Atheists Blood Drive.
I also have a column now for Minnesota Atheists, called, appropriately, The Sunny Skeptic. It is mostly about Atheist Dating and Relating right now, but I have plans for it in the future. (evil laughter)
Update: After the column, I was asked to be on the Editorial Board for Minnesota Atheists. After that, I was nominated to be on the Board of Directors as a Director at Large, and everyone ran uncontested, so everyone was elected. Go us!
lol.

It's me, as a Boticelli. So fun!
Want to know about my horrible, angry, tortured life? Here it goes!
I was brought up by my two loving, secular parents, who are still married after 35 years, and have only ever been married to each other. Go mom and dad! I have one little sister, and a small extended family that I sometimes get to see for the holidays if we can get together.
I live with my best friend and fiance, and we have two furry kittens who we love very much. We live very close to his brother and wife and their two sons, our nephews, who we love with all of our hearts. We spoil the nephews like crazy since we do not have any children of our own.
We read, play on our computers, watch documentaries and cartoons, hunt for fossils, go for bike rides and walks, and we like going to lectures, conferences and informative talks/debates, etc. Awe is in our hearts at this amazing world and universe, and the beauty of what’s around us is never lost on us.
We are thankful every day for what we have, and feel we are lucky to have so much good in our lives. We are not rich, but do our best to give back to others every chance we get, which includes lots of time, effort, and money, but it makes us feel good to know we’re making the world a better place.
Once in a while, we drive through the graveyard near our house because neighborhood kids have been vandalizing it, and the police don’t have time to patrol it. We don’t even know anyone buried there, but I feel like it’s something small we can do to help.
I laugh so much, it’s sick, and I laugh really long and loud. I laugh at almost anything, and sometimes am just driving down the road thinking of nothing and I start laughing. Sometimes I do things to make myself laugh, like dressing my car up like a reindeer for the holidays. Every time I see the car, or it’s shadow, or someone pointing or laughing at me, I start laughing. I did see Genghis Blues, and there seemed to be a Tuvan throat singer in that doc who laughed almost as much as me, which was great.
I don’t like people who are hateful, intolerant or violent. I don’t like people who are consistently negative. I keep close friends who are tolerant, loving, and fun, and they keep me because of the same. The only thing I’m intolerant of is hate, intolerance and violence.
I like to scrapbook and am working on some of our mini-vacations. We have never had enough money to take a big vacation, but I’m lucky for what I’ve done so far in life. I also lived in Manhattan for 3 years, and I consider that to be a pretty big adventure. Bright lights, big city, and lots of fun and trouble for an 18 year old to get into, but I still think it was all for the best!
I’m fatter now than I was in high school and when I started college, but I’m still happy with how I look. I just got my hair cut short, and it makes me feel great because I think it’s really cute. I don’t even feel like I need to wear make-up anymore because I love my hair so much. I still wear make-up most days though, because I LOVE to wear make-up.
I have infinite forgiveness in my heart and have forgiven a great many people for a great many things.
I also have infinite patience. Not on my blog, but in real life. (You can only get attacked so much before you stop coddling people and just tell it like you see it.) In real life, I have more than infinite patience, and can make it through anything and everything.
I always say thank you to people when they do something for me, because I think it’s important to remember everyone’s feelings and I am very grateful to them. Gratitude is important. I have a wall in my office at work of all of the thank you’s I’ve received, and I love to look at it. It feels good.
I bought a pillow top mattress pad for our bed after sleeping on one in a hotel. It feels good, but it kept sliding around, so we bought some fabric velcro that you can iron on, and we attached it with velcro to a regular mattress pad, and now it works great. That has been my latest triumph. Update: It’s not working so great now, but it was good while it lasted. Next we’re going to try to sew snaps on it. (I was just trying to get out of sewing, okay??)
One of our hobbies is going around trying to find the best burger in our area. We vote for Sportsman’s Grill in Owatonna, Minnesota as the number one burger, and their homemade chips are delicious. (No wonder I’m fatter now!)
lol.
I like to wear pajamas pretty much the whole time I’m home, but I NEVER wear pajamas in public. Ewww.
I started being more involved in Minnesota Atheists after some people we thought we could trust got freaked out by our atheism. I don’t tell people that I don’t know that I’m an atheist, except on this blog of course, so I don’t have a lot of practice in people getting pissed about it… I have told some people I trust, and most of them have been pretty nice. I do get a huge share of hate mail and letters saying how I’m going to burn in hell. The burn in hell ones don’t hurt, because I don’t believe in hell, and actually, the other ones don’t hurt either, because I’m so happy every day I don’t care!
I don’t like to touch newspaper, rocks, chalk, or yarn.
I have devoted my life to working with adults with disabilities. It’s work I truly love and feel passionate about, I’m good at it, and I have the job I’ve wanted for some time now. I’m almost done with school, so then it will be even better for me at work, so that’s great.
I really like philosophy, sociology, quantum physics, astronomy, anthropology, and geology a LOT. I wish I had been more focused when I was in college and had known better what I wanted in life! It’s hard to know when you’re young.
So, that’s me so far. I’ll add and subtract as more things add and subtract from my life. What do you think? Pretty angry and awful, huh? lol.
Update: My fiance received a letter in the regular US post from a christian threatening us. We went through the reasons such a letter could be sent, and all we could think of was intimidation. (You know, they KNOW where we live.) We are not scared, but I would like to say it’s not very kind to send a letter to someone’s home telling them to die, or threatening them in any way.
I would say most of all, it solidifies my idea that religious people are absolute crack heads who need to stay far away from me.
And I’m sorry, but even ‘nice’ religious people… You are only paving the way for this hatred by having these beliefs. Some religions tell people they don’t need to be accountable (atone for your sin later, all will be forgiven), they allow people to dehumanize others to the point of hatred and bigotry (those other people aren’t like us!), and they allow people to feel a sense of entitlement to their actions, no matter how heinous (god wants me to do this!). This gives them all license through imagination to burn down our house with us in it… Not okay. NOT okay! Get it? Please think about how your beliefs may influence others, especially those who are already a twinge ‘not right’. They need therapy and supervision, not religion.



57 responses so far ↓
snarla // December 14, 2008 at 12:01 pm |
That must be one cute haircut. What’s it look like?
sunnyskeptic // December 14, 2008 at 4:17 pm |
Yes, I love it. It’s short, but not too short. It’s wild, yet tame. It’s easy to style, or looks okay left on it’s own. I hope to get a pic up soon of it!
ketch22 // December 16, 2008 at 10:34 pm |
You stated you like a good debate, so I thought I would say hi.
You stated that you are intolerate of intolerance, which isn’t tolerant.
You don’t tolerate hateful or violent people… why? Why shouldn’t they be tolerated? If you get to chose who you tolerate, than so should everybody.
You state you are thankful. To whom? Thankfulness implies gratitude toward someone.
You don’t want to be around “religious” people. Why do athiests always use that word? Is it because it carries with it a negative vibe? Since I am a Christian without religion, (I only have Jesus), does that mean you would be OK to be around me? Can you use the term, “people with faith”? Or does “religious people” empower you?
And last, but by no means the least, you claim religious people pave the way to hatred, yet I have visited almost 20 Christian blogs today that have nary a yarn to spin regarding atheism, anything about hate, hating others, what can we do to promote hate, Oh how I hate those who think differently than I… etc… Yet, every blog I read written by a self-proclaimed athiest (anti-theist) hate is used quite often in the verbage. “I can’t stand theists”, “I hate religious bigots”, etc… Even your blog demonstrates the intolerance you proclaim to hate.
But, alas, I will pray for you out of love tonight for my fellow man, without the hate you seem to think we inspire.
PS… for not believing in God, you sure do your best to fight Him. Do you know any athiests who just don’t believe and don’t worry about those that do? If so, why aren’t all athiests in this category?
sunnyskeptic // December 17, 2008 at 4:52 am |
Case in point. I don’t go seeking out any religious blogs just to comment on them, to tell them their world view is wrong, and that I will be “thinking” of them, yet religious people seem to do that all the time. Like you just did. I leave religious people alone at all times in real life and on the internet, yet they seem to come to me. PS: I said I like a GOOD debate. lol.
ketch22 // December 17, 2008 at 7:54 am |
Case in point. You don’t seek out faith based blogs because you would be out of your element. Here you can post and have everybody agree with you. You will, however, subscribe to a religious mail group “to keep yourself informed”. Just give Him a chance… you will be suprised.
sunnyskeptic // December 17, 2008 at 12:09 pm |
You obviously haven’t read any of my posts very carefully, I do NOT subscribe to any religious mailing groups to ‘keep myself informed’… You must have misunderstood the post. Also, if you intend to comment on a post, please do so underneath that particular post’s thread. Commenting on my other posts here is getting tricky, because you’re referencing something that is NOT in the “About Me” section…
I don’t seek out religious blogs because I have no desire to find a stranger and criticize their beliefs or demean them. It is rude and hateful. Like I stated, obviously religious people have no problem doing that themselves…
I don’t mind if people disagree with me, but I do find it very rude when they criticize me or pass judgement on me, i.e. calling me immoral. Every single religious person who has posted has said as much. They always try to ’sugar coat’ it, but I can sense bitterness and hate in them when they attempt to talk about it. Also, all religious arguments criticizing my morality are childish and unfounded. (A person can’t be moral or thankful without a god to worship. Ridiculous and childish, and also a very tenuous position to take.)
ketch22 // December 17, 2008 at 8:15 pm |
“Every single religious person who has posted has said as much.”
I never called you immoral. I don’t hate you or have any hate in me toward you. I didn’t criticize your “beliefs”. I simply tried to stir up some debate because I love you. I love humanity enough to care about stuff you don’t believe in. I was wrong about the post regarding religious subscriptions, I did misread that.
I hope you get past the judgment of everybody hating that has faith. The majority don’t. You idea that they do is way off.
sunnyskeptic // December 18, 2008 at 6:06 pm |
“You don’t tolerate hateful or violent people… why? Why shouldn’t they be tolerated? If you get to chose who you tolerate, than so should everybody.”
This implies that I have no moral compass and should tolerate every deplorable act of human kind. That is saying that I am not a moral person.
“You state you are thankful. To whom? Thankfulness implies gratitude toward someone.”
This statement is a hate statement to me. You are diminishing the importance of very single person in my life by saying that I should not show gratitude to them.
Do me a favor and tell a PERSON thank you today. That would make me feel better about you. You cats preach love, but all you do is hate. You can say love love love all you want, that doesn’t make what you said to me already loving. Sorry. If you truly loved me or cared about me as a person, maybe you just would have said that and left well enough alone. I have never met a single religious person who didn’t sneak some bitterness and hate into their awesome love for me, and that includes you. See above if you need clarification again. Thanks!
PS: Again, you will not get another acknowledgment from me until you answer my question on my other post concerning which religions you consider false. Once you answer that, you will be acknowledged again.
ketch22 // December 18, 2008 at 8:09 pm |
I am sorry you feel that way. I am sorry you choose to find hate when there is none. I am sorry that you take a question about whom you are thankful toward to be a hate statement. I am sorry that if asked why you chose you can tolerate to be a diss on your moral compass. This appears to me that you have something else going on here. So I will leave you alone on that note and not post here any longer. If you truly believe there is hate intended by me and other’s of faith, then you have the problem. If you don’t believe this and just make these statements because you can’t really debate the fact that God exists, then I understand. Either way, I hope you find what is true. I didn’t know you posted elsewhere, I will go and answer that for you now.
Love, (no hate) Mark
snarla // December 25, 2008 at 11:04 am |
Wow, “Well, HE believes in YOU” isn’t good enough for Christians anymore? Now they have to do their best to ruin this time of year for everyone else?
I’ve never experienced such an unhappy winter solstice season before. What a bunch of sore losers.
snarla // December 25, 2008 at 11:04 am |
Whoops, I meant to say sore winners.
sunnyskeptic // December 30, 2008 at 6:13 pm |
Snarla, you make me lol.
I don’t see why there should be any freedom for anyone, really…
That’s how some of the posters always sound to me!
Freedom of religion is for all of us, believers and non-believers alike, yet they somehow there are still those that can’t see that.
Joe // March 3, 2009 at 1:32 pm |
Wow, after reading that, I feel like I have known you for years.
sunnyskeptic // March 3, 2009 at 5:32 pm |
In a good way or a bad way? lol.
Joshua McGee // March 3, 2009 at 11:32 pm |
Hey Crystal,
You left a note on my blog — on a totally unconnected topic (WordPress!) — and I was intrigued by the “Sunny Skeptic” bit.
So, I’m here, and I’m excited to be here. This is a truly wonderful blog. I don’t know if you found me through the Atheist Blogroll, or another way, but I’m glad you found me, as that let me find you.
You have more patience than I, actually. It looks like you actually bothered to engage the religionist who spewed on this page, but I will admit that my eyes glazed over. For me, there is a finite number of times that I’m willing to stand up to crazy people before I decide to just let them go on and be crazy. Not to be crazy around me, mind you, but to go off and be crazy on their own, as long as it’s in the privacy of their own home (especially children, who are too young to defend themselves.) As long as they keep fundamentalism in the bedroom, I’ll stay out of their bedroom.
I’m going to read the back-entries on your blog, but wanted to take a moment to let you know that I’m happy to be here.
Best,
Joshua McGee
Riker // March 6, 2009 at 2:39 pm |
Crystal,
I’m pretty much going to parrot back the above comment from Joshua…
Thanks for stopping by to comment at my blog; I’m glad to have followed the cookie crumb back here to your site. I’m looking forward to taking the time to read through your archives.
Keep up the good work you do; you’re a credit to our kind
dromedaryhump // March 15, 2009 at 2:13 pm |
I know this is after the fact but I must say you sure attracted the prototype fundie whack job when kethch22 showed up.
In his post of dec 16 I counted at least eight hackneyed platitudes that are in their ‘Mindless Fundie 101″ text book. I myself have commented on most of them over the past year in my blog. My fav is ” for not believing in God, you sure do your best to fight Him.” the implication being we aren’t REALLY atheists, we REALLY DO believe, we’re just rebelling. LOL.
Its as though it’s beyond their ken that we reject their god as fable just like they reject the 1000’s of other gods man has created in their image.
Anyway. Sounds like you have a great life. As atheists having a great life is important, something to be enjoyed and savored, since we know it’s the only life anyone has.
Regards,
Hump
sunnyskeptic // March 15, 2009 at 4:07 pm |
Dude, exactly!
How can you have a lousy life when you know this is it? You can’t, you make the most of it. I make the most of every little thing, I still stare at my man and my cats like it’s the first time I saw them… I think it’s important.
Yeah, the fundagelicals never change, it’s all the same. It gets boring and tiring, really. I don’t reject or fight ‘god’ anyway, I fight religious bigotry and hypocrisy, and that is all.
Sarniaskeptic // March 17, 2009 at 8:42 am |
Thanks for the comment on my blog. I guess that means one person has read it
As for free refills, for my religion, I’m not sure if I’m going to require people to re-use their cups. I think my afterlife should pretend to be “green”.
I haven’t had any religidiots stop by my blog (okay, Pete Rooke – one of the Pharyngula Survivor participants – but he didn’t stay around long) (and maybe this will invite a few) even though I’ve enjoyed visiting (and posting) on a number of their blogs.
I just wish that one of them would come up with something other than the old and tired arguments that are easily demolished.
Too often, however, they defend their position by claiming we’re creating strawmen (see my “Not Your God” blog posting) and are not willing to identify their position/beliefs.
Oh well, I’m just rambling (out of jealousy that I don’t get stupid visitors, maybe).
Back to murdering, raping and stealing I go.
sunnyskeptic // March 17, 2009 at 3:55 pm |
People are pretty jealous of my trolls. The thing is, they cheat on me with other atheist blogs, and also, they soon grow tired of me and leave for greener pastures… I’m not 21 anymore…
lol.
Sarniaskeptic // March 18, 2009 at 9:30 am |
Sorry sunny, I had to come back because I had someone follow the link from my earlier post.
I have to apologize for wanting to rape people – that is the domain of the religious. That wasn’t such an important crime that it needed to be written in stone, apparently.
My post isn’t so long today because I have to get down to the animal farm to steal a goat and his mother’s milk – for tonight I must.. well, you know how the tenth commandment goes.
sunnyskeptic // March 18, 2009 at 1:19 pm |
That’s okay, I know we can’t stop ourselves.
knowledgetoday // March 30, 2009 at 3:29 am |
I love your site. Keep it up !
Paul Sunstone // April 13, 2009 at 4:43 pm |
You’re off to a very good start with this blog! I love your writing style — it’s personal but informed and objective. Best wishes!
Troy // April 16, 2009 at 2:41 pm |
Thank you! I love that “anti-theists” are making themselves known! It is hard to discuss sometimes.
I spent years in the Marine Corps….and LOVED IT. But I was always feeling under pressure to believe in the fantasy that religion promotes. I had to be silent. I was always told I was an “outstanding” Marine, but it was obvious the leadership wouldn’t feel the same way if they knew I couldn’t possibly believe what they did.
I couldn’t truly believe……
…That supernatural being impregnated a mortal woman who then had a ½ human ½ god-child who could perform magic and raise the dead….later in life the Zeus-like god allows humans to sacrifice his son – although…it really isn’t much of a sacrifice since this ½ god-child gets to go to a better place to help his god-father rule everything…
…without feeling like an idiot.
(These same people think it is outlandish to believe Muhammad flew to a magic world (heaven) on a winged-horse….and well, it is!)
I’m still not extremely vocal about it, but I have been more active trying not to allow others’ force their rules (through law) and beliefs on me or anyone else who can’t possibly believe in the ridiculousness.
Anyway I could go on for a long time – I’m very happy…and even more thrilled to know I am anything but alone in thinking this way. I too recently found a wonderful, funny and very cute girl who is also a non-theist. Nice.
-Troy
sunnyskeptic // April 17, 2009 at 2:03 pm |
WTG on the non-theist gal, Troy!
I do have to say that I LOVE sharing my life with a fellow atheist, our outlooks are so in line with one anothers’.
Most important is making sure people don’t impose laws regarding religious belief, anything else is just icing on the cake. Watch the newspapers, especially on the local level, and give the heads up to atheist/humanist/civil liberties groups as needed… They’ll usually take care of the rest.
Valérie // April 16, 2009 at 11:40 pm |
Sunny Skeptic,
I go around blogs all the time, going from one to the other, and this is how I found yours.
I read your “know about” page. It’s funny because you sound like your ideas are a bit like Whynot.
“If you’re a religionut or fundagelical and are trying to promote your own blog, I won’t ever click on your link.”
I am catholic but I don’t think I am “religionnut”. Also I don’t have my own blog, I am too lazy to do this, and I just participate in Whynot’s blog. Whynot is atheist marxist and never puts me down because I am catholic, he is always very nice to me. You know, it is strange because the only times that I get nasty things said to me is not by all the atheists on the blog but by some of the religious people who go there and say that because I don’t read the bible I am not a real Christian.
Also all my real life friends in Paris, half of them are atheist and I am just as good friends with them as with the others that are catholic or jew or muslim or nothing at all, LOL.
Valérie // April 16, 2009 at 11:43 pm |
And thank you that your blog is not moderated and censored.
Asylum Seeker // April 17, 2009 at 10:21 am |
She did use to moderate comments if I remember correctly. But I sincerely doubt that she ever “censored” when doing so. Anyway, I tend to find that Catholics are the least likely to be “religionuts” (pet theory of mine), and that most Catholic-specific bashing tends to come from either other denominations of Christianity or ex-Catholics. I’ve always been entertained by the hardcore “true” Christians who assert that Catholicism can be lumped in with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons in their “not real Christians” categories. History be damned, I suppose.
sunnyskeptic // April 17, 2009 at 2:00 pm |
Hey there!
Valerie: If you don’t think you’re a religionut, then chances are you probably aren’t!
I don’t make decisions for anyone. (I don’t think you are one, mostly because you haven’t berated me yet, and I have looked at Whynot of course, many times.)
I had someone who read a post I wrote on racism once, and he got mad that I was calling ‘him’ a racist. I just said ‘hey, if you’re identifying with it, it’s not my problem!’.
Also, Asylum, yo, I did moderate comments when I was new to my blog and I didn’t know how to just let them go through automatically…
Well, also, I wasn’t getting many comments at first either. And, no, I haven’t ever censored anyone in any way.
Jack Hdfk // April 27, 2009 at 3:18 pm |
hello sunny
you were nice enough to leave comment; so i return favour!
your blog looks way better than mine anyway. i hope it goes from strength to strength!
i from ldn, where (nearly) everybody is atheist! we never have to worry about ‘revealing’ we are atheist. you have to mention it of you’re not!
waggy tails from ralph & storm (my puppies)!
sunnyskeptic // April 27, 2009 at 3:24 pm |
You’re very lucky, Jack! Sounds like a dream.
wljc // April 28, 2009 at 8:35 am |
I came across your website and noticed you were an atheist from Minnesota. I too am originally from Minnesota, though I am not an atheist.
My father is an atheist and a most unhappy and angry man, for many reasons. But his atheism hasn’t helped him at all.
The writings of Neitzsche, Sartre and Camus reveal a dark and cruel side to atheism.
Human beings may be the most highly organized systems of protoplasm, but they ultimately are no different than trees, dogs or monkeys.
The universe is the product of matter, energy, time and chance and therefore it is ultimately without meaning or purpose.
Morality can be chosen according to individual conscience and is ultimately relative.
Free will is an illusion as human behavior is ultimately genetically determined.
Death is the end of human existence and it throws into doubt the value of our acheivements and our very lives.
For those who follow the logical implications of atheism to their ends, it is truly a bleak and cruel outlook.
Of course, atheists can choose to be optimistic and sunny in spite of it all.
sunnyskeptic // April 28, 2009 at 11:55 am |
Correct, and incorrect. Does it bother you that humans are animals? Trees are not, btw.
Correct. Does it bother you if the universe has no purpose solely for yourself?
Correct. Does it bother you that you may need to think about your morality, rather than just being told by an authority figure?
Incorrect. Nothing about our lives is ‘genetically determined’, and I know quite a few people who would really be insulted by that statement.
Why would death make me doubt the values of my achievements or my life?
Wrong. It’s not bleak and cruel at all, you just get to make your own decisions. Oh, how awful! How will I ever decide what’s right or wrong or how to life a purposeful life?
PS: I live in Minnesota now, but I’m not from Minnesota, so thankfully we have nothing in common.
Joshua McGee // April 28, 2009 at 2:33 pm |
Even if this were true, why would it matter, or influence what we should believe or how we should behave? If atheism is true but uncomfortable, why should we choose comfort and ignore truth? Getting AIDS is terrible, but ignoring it and having unprotected sex would be an unreasonable response.
LivingWithMormons // April 28, 2009 at 9:29 pm |
Hi,
You stopped by my blog and I wanted to return the favor and check yours out (and so far, I’m loving it!)
Now, I can tell that you’re never angry by all you’ve said here, but are you ever sad???
I could recommend a few movies to see if those tear ducts even work
Keep up with making a difference for the better.
Cheers,
LWM
sunnyskeptic // April 29, 2009 at 3:49 am |
Once in a while, but not much, and if I am sad it usually doesn’t last very long! (a few minutes)
Thanks for stopping by.
wljc // April 29, 2009 at 7:48 am |
Thank you for agreeing almost point-by-point that atheism sees human beings as highly evolved systems of protoplasm, who live out their relatively short lives in a chance universe that has no meaning, where morality is relative and death is the end.
Neitzsche, Camus and Sartre all understood that this had serious ramifications.
But not so the optimistic, sunny atheists.
For them it is enough “to get to make their own decisions.”
Here is where you may have to do a little more reading and study of those atheists who would argue that human beings are genetically determined.
Does it bother you that some atheists think this way about human existence?
In an accidental, chance universe, what is the value of your moral choices and the purpose and meaning you choose?
In the end, all die and meet the same end: the good and the bad, the happy and the sad, the bigots and the tolerant, the lovers and the haters, the greedy and the generous.
In an accidental, absurd universe where morality is relative, life has no meaning and purpose, there is no free will and death is the end, I can live as I please.
That can be a good thing or a bad thing, but either way, it doesn’t make a difference.
sunnyskeptic // April 29, 2009 at 2:06 pm |
*Sigh* You trolls are all the same. Except you actually seem to know how to spell, so good on ya.
Honestly, it’s not a big deal if there’s no purpose to the universe or life. It’s really not. The world will keep spinning whether I’m here or not, and the universe will be in existence for as long as it is or isn’t.
I know I don’t mean anything to you, and that’s absolutely fine with me. I do believe that I may mean something to, say, the man I’m marrying, or the cats that we take care of every day. I may perhaps even mean something to all of the individuals with disabilities who I have worked tirelessly for in the past 14 years. Who knows? Does it matter? Not really. Is that a reason to be unhappy? No.
You see, the deal is, if I am kind to others, it is somewhat more likely that they will be kind to me. For example: I see Person A on the street and I go up to Person A and punch them in the nose. I have not made a friend, I have possibly made an enemy, I have done harm to another, and harm may now possibly come to me if they decide to punch me back or call the police. I see Person A on the street and I leave them alone. I have not made a friend but I did no harm. I see Person A on the street and say hello. I have not made a friend, but perhaps I made Person A’s day a little better.
Yet again, does it matter in the grand scheme of things? Of course not! Does it matter in the way I live my life and what happens to myself and those around me? Of course it does. You can live as you please, it doesn’t matter what you do, but to me, why make the world unpleasant while you’re on it, either for yourself OR for other people? It just doesn’t make any logical sense.
Christians are afraid of making moral decisions because their morality is absolutely awful. It is not their fault, it is the fault of their religion. Christians are built into a religion where they can always be forgiven by god no matter what they do (except deny the holy spirit, of course), where the next life is more important than this, and where their role models are either evil, insane, or just plain absent. Doesn’t sound like a perfect father to me.
I am not really sure why christians can’t understand natural consequences, but perhaps it is that delusion that all will be forgiven/all will be well in the afterlife in heaven. Quick primer on natural consequences: A natural consequence of going out into the rain without a rain jacket or umbrella is that you will probably get wet. It’s pretty tough to understand, I know, so let it soak in for a while. Bad pun intended.
Because of their terrible moral role models and the idea that they will be forgiven by god no matter what they do, I can’t blame a christian when she fucks around on her husband and thinks it doesn’t matter because she’ll be sitting on a golden throne in heaven. Here’s the deal though: I have no desire to fuck around on Vic, I would feel bad if I fucked around on Vic, and if I ever, in some crazy unbelievable scenario, DID fuck around on Vic, he would leave me.
So screw the golden throne in heaven, because one, it’s not going to happen, and two, I’d rather be happy and content on this earth with Vic right now.
Also, do not tell me what to read or study. I have a massive educational background, and do not need to be told who to study or how. Because I reject certain ideas of atheists doesn’t mean anything. I know for a fact that many christians reject certain ideas from other christians, so you have absolutely no point there. If you feel the need to insult me again, I will delete all of your comments from here on out and you will be one troll that can just go find some other atheist blog to junk up amongst the thousands that are out there.
Joshua McGee // April 29, 2009 at 9:28 am |
Will you allow me, wljc? I know I am not the one addressed, so please excuse my rudeness in interrupting.
You mentioned Camus. His characters’ arcs, in his fiction, end up (or pass through) a conclusion that what we can do is “fight against nature as we find it”. Generalizing: it is up to us to make meaning out of the void.
Your jump from “accidental universe” to “genetically determined” and “no free will” is a non sequitur — literally, it does not follow. Free will is undeniably a very hard problem, and there have been plenty of religionists and atheists alike who have believed or rejected the existence of free will. It is thorny: I fight with this every day. If we do not have free will, then we have a very compelling illusion of free will, do we not? Tracts that seek to explore this more often than not merely frustrate; (atheist) Daniel Dennett spins his wheels for several hundred pages in “Consciousness Explained” and, in my opinion, gets no closer to the truth.
So, while the nature of free will (“agency”) is fraught with difficulties, I have a powerful intuition that I do in fact have it, that I am actually an agent.
How does this differ from you? Really not at all. You (seem to) believe in God/meaning/whatever because (to a greater or lesser degree) you find it comforting. So do I; so, indeed, does Crystal — clearly — although she may jump in and deny it.
Dawkins writes (roughly) “The world is divided into two groups of people: those who recognize that the ability to comfort has no relevance to an existential claim, and those who do not.” This is all well and good and, strictly, meaningful in a deterministic sense, but I expect that Dawkins still believes he is making choices (his response to Blackmore suggests this, if nothing else.)
You seem — honestly, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me — to believe that if you believed (or acknowledged) that there is no inherent “meaning” to life (in the way that there is no “meaning” to the color light blue or the existence of the top quark; they simply are) that you would find yourself paralyzed, or depraved, or morose. I would appreciate your providing adjectives so that I may more appropriately respond. But really, is that relevant? I mean, if there truly is no meaning, is your belief more than a security blanket?
But back to me, and my inconsistency: I choose to believe in free will because I would find myself paralyzed if I failed to believe in it. But note the difficulties of that sentence: “choose to believe” already implies agency, so it’s kinda skewed from the get-go.
“Genetically determined” is a red herring — whether or not the universe is mechanistic and deterministic, it simply would not reduce to genes. Few things do, in fact, being much more complex and involving the complex interaction of stimuli to a living creature. There are also compelling reasons to think that quantum indeterminacy — the only thing we have that experts believe is truly random — may be amplified in such a way (at least in some cases) to render determinism failed from the start; that is, it is not simply difficult to calculate the results of a universe that is strictly deterministic, but actually impossible (for two reasons, actually: theoretic impossibility of measuring the beginning state exactly [Heisenberg] and the aforementioned quantum effects.)
If you have no interest in engaging me on this issue, and only Crystal, I would appreciate a tiny note to that effect so I can not waste further time. But you are rather articulate in support of a position I do not hold, and I hope you will do me the honor of responding.
sunnyskeptic // April 29, 2009 at 2:13 pm |
Interrupt away, McGee. W-whatever-initials-can’t-remember is just another troll, and they come and go, so who cares. I share my trolls, I try to send them around because other atheists get jealous. (Although I don’t have NEAR as many as some big time bloggers!)
It’s not like any of them say anything new!
Except, like I already mentioned, this one somehow learned how to spell and use proper grammar, so that’s different.
Joshua McGee // April 29, 2009 at 8:04 pm |
My intuition is that this commentator is not really a troll. I get the sense that you don’t want him as “yours”, what with the deletion warnings and all. Permit me to write my email address, Crystal? It’s joshua@mcgees.org. Wljc? if you’d like to take this offline with me, I’d be interested to talk to you further.
sunnyskeptic // April 30, 2009 at 4:00 am |
Go for it.
And it’s a troll. Religious person who looks for atheist blogs in their spare time to try to blow the atheists’ mind with a ‘new’ kind of thinking or argument. Which is never new.
But have fun with that.
wljc // April 30, 2009 at 8:01 am |
This is your blog and you make the rules, which I will do my best to respect.
I was not trying to insult you. Rather I was attempting to point out weaknesses in atheism.
Your response, however, included name-calling, vulagarities and diagnostic assumptions. I would only ask that you follow the same rules you set out for others.
I am a person, not a “troll.” You don’t know me so you cannot assume to know what I think.
You admit that human beings are animals. But is it possible you don’t really believe this?
People run over squirels, possums, dogs and cats with their cars and though they may feel bad, they will usually keep right on driving.
But if people run over another human being, they will stop and call for help. If they don’t, the law will be after them.
There’s just something different about human beings isn’t there? Is it more than just having an opposable thumb and a more complex brain?
You admit that the universe is absurd, without meaning and purpose, yet you choose meaning and purpose for your life. Good for you! You choose to work with individuals with disabilites. That’s great! We all have to do something to fill up 24 hours a day.
But in a meaningless universe you wouldn’t have to. You could just as well run cruel experiments on handicapped people for the betterment of all humankind.
Help them or hurt them, it doesn’t really matter in an accidental univese. You will die just like the Nazi doctors.
In a meaningless universe, you have no guarantee that doing good will bring good results back to you.
You might punch someone in the nose, who later becomes a good friend. You might help someone in need, who thanks you with a punch in the nose.
Do you really believe the universe is accidental and meaningless? It’s possible to say it, but not really live accordingly.
Or is there an order and meaning to the universe that makes human actions and interactions meaningful?
Why is there a universe at all?
Why is the universe intelligible?
For these questions, atheism has no answers.
Atheism has a dark side and it leaves too many questions unanswered.
sunnyskeptic // April 30, 2009 at 9:20 am |
You’re right. Religion has no dark side. What’s the point of any of it then, anyway? Even being religious? Would there be any point to that, either? Not really. What if you picked the wrong religion? Hell fire for you!
And you ARE a troll. You post on this blog, you aren’t a fellow atheist, and you come to criticize my life belief, which makes you a troll.
Also, thanks for calling the people I work with ‘filling up a 24 hour day’. I’ll tell them that’s what a religious person said, they’ll be pretty happy to hear it, I’m sure. I bet that the person I chose to spend my life with will be thrilled with that attitude as well. Hey, Vic, might as well chill with you, you know, fill up my 24 hour day… Blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda. Is your life that sad?
sunnyskeptic // April 30, 2009 at 9:24 am |
PS there: There wasn’t any name calling, and I can use ‘vulgarities’ as I please, again, and as you stated, it’s my blog, it’s my thing.
I wouldn’t call fucking around on someone making love, so pardon the fact that I will not use a euphemism for something so deplorable.
wljc // May 1, 2009 at 8:55 am |
If you post a blog in cyperspace, then you must be prepared to defend your position to those who may disagree with you.
Otherwise, do your writing in a journal.
The atheist’s description of reality says that the universe is a product of energy and matter and time and chance. It’s an accidental universe where there is no meaning, morality is relative, human beings are animals, free will is an illusion and death is the end.
No matter how militant they are, atheists just can’t live by their own description of reality. They go on to invent meaning in a meaningless universe, they pass judgments even though morality is relative, they treat humans and animals differently even though humans are animals too, they claim to be free in a material universe and they strive to achieve, though death ends all.
Conversely, theism in general and Christianity in particular describe a universe where: there is meaning, there are standards for morality, humans beings endowed with unique capacities including free and there is hope for life after death.
The theistic view of reality is better and more reasonable than the atheistic view. No one can live according to the atheistic view. Willingly and unwillingly all people live according to the theistic view.
sunnyskeptic // May 1, 2009 at 2:41 pm |
I would LOVE to know what the christian standards for morality are. They seem all over the board to me. And you have to know that morality is an invention of man whether you’re religious or not?
You also do know that even though humans are considered ‘animals’ that atheist do know and understand that humans are much different from other animals. (Although, unlike most christians, I would say that I’m not necessarily better than animals and I don’t condone cruelty toward them!)
Also, why are you so intent on ‘life after death’? Is it too hard to live here? Or you just think you’re so grand that you get to keep on? What is with that attitude, it is so confusing to me!
mcgees.org » Blog Archive » Why bother? // May 1, 2009 at 3:57 pm |
[...] the nature of reality. I have his permission to post our discussion so far (which started on The Sunny Skeptic) and to invite my readers to join the conversation. I will thread our posts back and forth in [...]
wljc // May 2, 2009 at 8:44 am |
I was surprised you took the time to go to Joshua’s blog and call me a troll over there as well.
You also had to comment–again–on my writing skills.
If you would be so kind, please put these insults to rest. Please do not refer to me as a troll nor express amazement at how I write.
Now let me respond to your reasonable questions.
God is the basis for morality, particularly His character.
Left to their own, the morality of human beings will tend towards survival of the fittest. Given the limited resources and space on planet earth, humans will tend to fight and struggle for survival.
God has revealed His nature and His morality to us. It can be summed up, “Love God and love your neighbor.”
Christian morality is to love God in worship, service and witness to Him. It is to help those in need.
This is why Christians have, in the name of the Lord, built hospitals, homeless shelters, schools, food pantries, and such.
Of course, Christians have also done evil in the name of the Lord, and this is to our shame and the worst kind of evil.
I’m not sure what you mean when you say that you are “not necessarily better than animals?” What does this mean?
No Christians I know condone cruelty to animals.
The fact that atheists consider human beings animals and yet treat animals and humans much differently is one of the problems I see with atheism.
Please see the post I have placed on Joshua’s blog for a fuller discussion of this.
I do not think I am so grand I get to keep on.
I understand that I am just one person, amidst billions of people, past, present and future. I am a grain of sand on a seashore. I live out my short, obscure life and then die.
If there is no God, and death is the end, what is the point?
3 or 4 generations after me, no one will know or care that I existed. Whether I lived a good, productive, honest, tolerant and generous life, or a bad, lazy, dishonest, bigoted and greedy life, ultimately doesn’t matter.
In this vast and complex universe, my life only has meaning if God exists.
Life after death has nothing to do with how grand or special I view myself. It is how poweful I understand death to be and how even more powerful I understand God to be.
In a universe that is the product of matter, energy, time and chance, death nullifies my short obscure life.
In a universe created by God, the intelligent designer and first cause, He has dignified me with unique human capacities and overcome death and the grave for me.
I realize I am drawing assumptions here, but I am attempting to answer your questions succintly.
sunnyskeptic // May 2, 2009 at 9:36 am |
Yes, it took a whole 3 seconds out of my life. How much time do you take out of your life trolling? Because you do need to know you are one.
Also, I don’t know this loving god of which you speak? Are you ignoring the Old Testament completely?
wljc // May 4, 2009 at 2:45 pm |
You just can’t resist labeling and name calling. Is that because you enjoy being called names by others?
Atheists don’t know of a loving God, in part, because of a completely one-sided reading of the Bible, especially the OT.
They pick out those parts of the Bible that they find morally upsetting, ignoring the complex factors that contribute to wars, crime and punishment and moral and spiritual development.
They ignore the many parts of the Bible that descibe a loving, merciful God and all His gracious actions, from creating the universe “good” to sending his one and only Son for our forgiveness, salvation and eternal life.
sunnyskeptic // May 4, 2009 at 5:52 pm |
So I pick out the bad parts and you pick out the good parts, and that makes your ideas better how?
Also, PLEASE, I am not name calling. Troll is a legitimate term, and it’s what you’re doing. I think, although I do not believe your intent is malicious, that you are indeed what would be defined as a troll. You would seek out an atheist blog to try to state your case; you would post somewhere that wasn’t relevant (not related to any writings or posts I have made, and in different areas than the actual posts); and you have said the same things over and over, and no matter what is brought forth to you, you ignore it and continue to say the same things…
Atheist Revolution puts it very well:
“As tempting as it would have been to conclude that my post must have touched a nerve, it turns out that something like 75% if the comments had little to do with my post and were instead irrational arguments from Christian trolls and well-intentioned rebuttals from regular readers.”
There is another definition of troll that I feel you probably DO NOT fit:
“Hanging one’s penis out of the back of a moving vehicle, in the pursuit of poonany, much like fishing.”
Not sure on that, can’t vouch for you because I don’t really know you…
Atheist Revolution also has a very good set of rules, which I will now be using for myself. Please see blog post regarding such which I will be posting in 5 seconds, if you have ever even visited my blog posts. It seems like you’ve just tried to hang around this particular page.
Joshua McGee // May 4, 2009 at 7:23 pm |
wljc:
How cocky is it to quote myself? But it will save me time:
More…
Wade, one of the fastest ways you can prove you are not a troll is to quit it already or to come up with better points.
sunnyskeptic // May 5, 2009 at 3:18 pm |
He’s done. I’m already quite tired of him. Bye!
Steve Hansmann // July 17, 2009 at 3:24 am |
Holy St. Dismas! What’s with these sorry excuses for reasoning hominids? No morality without religion, (read this christianity), is a keystone belief of “those who cannot think”. Any cursory survey of life on this earth will prove this wrong. In fact, humans are the only species that is not moral without thought. Almost all animals are eminently moral. Humans are the only species that engages in cruelty, the only one out of tens of millions. And no, you dunderhead, cats playing with live mice doesn’t qualify, the cats are not enjoying the suffering of the mice, just the game. Most animals, unless driven by genetic flaw, disease, injury, or abuse, CANNOT be immoral by the standards of their species. We can, and do, on a regular basis.
Troll is too nice a term for the christer apologists. How about bots for bot fly larvae? They’re invasive, parasitical, and useless, except for generating new botflies, (much like republicans, especially the christer versions). Just discovered your site, bless you. It’s always good to look in someone’s eyes, (metaphorically), and see that everyone is home and all the lights are on.
Angie Jackson // August 14, 2009 at 2:26 pm |
Wow, I don’t think I could ever claim infinite patience, but then again I have a toddler to test mine half-hourly
Likewise, I can’t claim infinite forgiveness, although I’ve forgiven much. It’s always great to read positive atheist blogs around the sphere.
Nice to meet ya Sunny